The Vanflip Podcast: #157 Dewey Halpaus of The Peer Pleasure Podcast

Lurk-What is up? Welcome to this week's episode of the Van Flip podcast. This week, I am joined by Dewey Halpaus, who at one time or another was in the... Would you call it a post-hardcore emo-core band? What would you call Anatomy?

DH-Man, everyone called it post-hardcore, but just a Screamo band.

Lurk-Okay, yeah. Anatomy of the Ghost. Then from there, you went and were in the early stages of Portugal The Man. But currently, You do the same thing we're doing now. You podcast. I think you and I started a podcast around the same time, although you kept it running. You might have done a little before me. I don't know 100%, but you kept it running when I took a year off. We both are under the same management group, or whatever you want to call it, SoundTalent, I think. At least we were. I don't know if you still are, but you run the Peer Pleasure podcast. Do we help us? Welcome to the show. Welcome to the Van Flip.

DH-Thank you very much for having me. This is good.

Lurk-Yeah. So when did you start your pod?

DH-October 16th of 2016.

Lurk-Okay, yeah. So you were a year or so before the van flip. But I think you are one of the only other decently known podcasts in the space that I reference here and there. I just told you before we got on. I don't do a whole lot of research on guests and stuff like that. However, on certain guests, I will put a podcast on in the background just so I maybe don't ask the same stupid questions. Also, maybe they touch on something that maybe the host or they didn't dive too deep into, and I might try to bring that up and get some more out of them. But your podcast is one of the few that I do reference from time to time, so I appreciate that.

DH-Of course. I'm glad to hear.

Lurk-How did you get in? Because you started in bands back in the early 2000s. Were you in any other projects past Portugal? Because I know you were in Portugal in the mid 2000s.

DH-No, that was it. That was the end of music for me, pretty much because it's a weird situation that getting offers from other bands and then those falling through, already being replaced in Portugal after the tour ends. I was like, You know what? I'm sick of touring. So I just stopped and haven't been back since. I still go to shows and things like that. I still play, but I haven't done anything like a proper band since.

Lurk-Interesting. Have you always resided in the Pacific Northwest? Because I know Anatomy was, if I remember correctly, from Alaska or somewhere.

DH-Yeah, we're all from Alaska. I grew up in Alaska. I was in Alaska from four months old to 18. Then we all moved down to do music. That was November 2000. We've been in the Northwest ever since. Pretty much all of us. Nick lives in Virginia now, and everyone else lives in Oregon.

Lurk-Do you still keep in touch with those guys from either band?

DH-Oh, yeah. I talked to Zack Monday. Then nick and Joe and I, nick flew out from Virginia, and him and Joe and our tour manager, Logan, all went out to dinner two weeks ago. Then whenever the guys are in town, I usually see them. I did not go to the Portugal show that just happened. I went to the Coheed show the night before and hung out with those boys, and then didn't want to do Edgefield two nights in a row. I'd seen Portugal enough, so I decided to go on the more out-of-town friends.

Lurk-Those boys had a weird trajectory, especially in the last handful of years. They had that mega hit song. I still feel it. I remember because, again, I didn't really listen to a whole lot of Portugal because around that time frame, around 2010-ish, I started getting in heavier into other styles of music. I just had gotten, not over, but just done listening to scene music, so to speak. I spent over a decade in it listening to it every day. I started expanding a little bit more, going back to things that I was originally into, like electronic music and more hip hop and pop and stuff like that, just because around 2010, I keep saying this on the podcast, but there was a lull in decent bands that were coming out around 2010 to 2015, in my perspective, for what I was listening to. There were also good bands in general. Then when I heard the I Still Fill It song, I was like, Portugal demand. I do remember that band name, but I don't remember them sounding like this or being on the radio or whatever. It had to been wild for that to happen.

DH-Oh, yeah. I remember when John wrote that song, they had been struggling to finish records, and then the label's like, We don't hear a first single. I was over to his house and He just says, I did it. I was like, What? He's like, Did what? He's like, I wrote it. I wrote the song. I think this is it for what they want. He played it for me and I was like, That's Mr. Postman. He's like, Yeah, I like that melody. It was like a placeholder in the studio. Because a week or two prior, I was over there and he's like, They want another single. Then two weeks later or so, he did it. Then they had so many demos for that Woodstock record. It was insane. There was like 50-some songs. We would listen to them in the van, driving around, running errands and stuff. Everything changed quite a bit. A lot of the songs changed in the final version, and then that song just exploded. It was insane. He texted me a video of Britney Spears dancing to it or Zac Efron at a barbecue listening to it, or I think it made Obama's playlist.

DH-It was crazy. Yeah, it was insane. But it's a classic hook. It's a classic melody that everyone knows. You may not know the Marble Eats, but that's That song was huge. They just took it to another level, which I mean, that's what music is essentially. You just borrow and borrow from here and there and mash it all together. It just happened to work, lightning in a bottle. I don't think I've talked to him about it a lot, and I think the consensus is that's not even the best song on the record. That's just the song that did it. We'll never write a song like that again. We'll never have a song that's that big again, but who cares? That's what's funny is the last time I saw them at Edgefield after that song came out, they played it twice. They played it at the beginning in the middle of the set. I was like, Why are you doing that? They're like, Well, people come in and out and everyone wants to hear it. I was like, Yeah, that's weird, but that's what they did.

Lurk-Bizkit does that, too. Limp Bizkit does that currently. They play break stuff in the front, and then they close with break stuff. I don't understand it, but I get it, but it's weird. It's a little weird, but anyway. You lead Portugal the Man in the mid-2000s, and then currently, you're doing the podcast, which you started in 2016. In that span of 10 years, obviously, you said you didn't really You were done with music, but what things were you doing in that span before you decided to start the podcast?

DH-Man, I started working a real job, went to college, got a degree, had a couple of kids, got married, just regular life stuff, stuff that I hadn't experienced really as an adult because we started so early. We were in bands together in the '90s. That was That's all we wanted to do. I put everything in one basket until we accomplished it, and then we did it. It was awesome, but I didn't do any real life stuff. I'd always come home from tour and be like, Hey, man, what have you been up to? They're like, Oh, I just finish college or had a kid or whatever. What did you... I went to a bunch of towns again and played the same songs over again. It's like being frozen in time. It's a weird thing. That's it. I started a family, started a career, which I'm still doing, and then the podcast. But I didn't go to a lot of shows in that time. I was just off of music. I didn't listen to a whole lot. I started listening to a lot of talk radio and things like that.

Lurk-Any particular reason as to why you just want to leave that chapter behind or you just didn't do it just subconsciously?

DH-It was an option paralysis thing where there was so much available then. That's when streaming started happening a little bit. It was crazy. I didn't know what I even wanted to choose to listen to, so I just didn't. If a friend's band put out a new record, I'd check it out. Every once in a while, I went to shows. I did really briefly, maybe two years, in the two years after I had my son, I started working at a venue in town. That was… Well, hold on. Let me jump back. Before I joined Portugal, after Anatomy broke up, I didn't know what we were going to do. We had bidding wars going on with labels. I was like, Dudes, let's hang on. We'll be set up. They didn't want to do it. I was like, Fuck. Okay. All right. I didn't know what to do. I got a job working security at a venue in town. And with a guy, Mike Wolfson, who just passed away recently, sadly. He gave us jobs. We were working there as security. Then we worked as day shift. We'd get up and go run errands or get the food orders for the kitchen or get lumber supplies for changing things in the venue.

DH-It was really an interesting time because I was homeless for that whole, I think it was three years, three and a half, because we were trying to start this other band called The Burning Room, and we put out a record on Media Scare in 2006, and we couldn't work anywhere else in tours. Mike would pay us cash. Every night we worked, and then he let me live at the venue. Oh, cool. I lived in a church, basically. It's like an upstairs room of the venue that he rented out to a church on Sundays. I got to live there from Sunday night to Saturday night. Then I had to take all my stuff and stash it somewhere and go stay at a friend's house. The church didn't know I was staying there. It was so weird. Then we had a practice space in the basement of the venue. Then I moved into an office eventually as my room. We're playing massive. She's like, Fall Out Boys playing there before they were massive, right before they blew up. It was one of the last shows there, and there's a thousand people walking around outside my bedroom door, and then I go out and work and then come back and try to sleep.

DH-Anyways, it was an interesting time because I was completely homeless aside from that venue. I practiced there, I worked there, and Live there. Once that band ended and I went with Portugal, I didn't have to live there anymore. I lived with the Portugal guys wherever they were living, someone's basement. We were all homeless. Then after I had my son, I wanted to make some extra money, so I went back and started working there again as a production manager. I saw so many shows that way, and I just didn't care. I was just like, All right, so and so, I don't know how many times. Trying to think of a band that played there all the time. Yellow Card played there all the time, multiple times a year, like Bleeding Through, Propagandy, a lot of repeat bands that were great bands, but I was just burnt. That was a couple of years of that, and I stopped, and then Mike passed a few years ago during COVID, and those days were over. But that was a big part of that time period. I think back on it.

Lurk-Working at a venue, I've never done that, but it has to be a whole situation because, again, you're seeing shows every other night, depending on however often you work, you're seeing a show that night, no matter what. I mean, depending on what the venue caters to, obviously, some venues cater to certain lanes, and others are multi-genres. You I don't know, but I would assume you can easily get burnt out on going to live entertainment doing that.

DH-Well, it was the worst of the worst because our practice space was there, so we practiced there. B My band's played there every night, so we worked there during the shows. Then I would go on tour and be in a venue every night playing music. Then I would come back and I would... Everyone got dropped off at their house, and I'd get dropped off at the club. I'd go upstairs. It usually wasn't a show playing that night. When I got back, go upstairs, lay down on my bed, and all of a sudden a band starts practicing in the basement. I'm like, Son of a bitch. I couldn't get away from music. I couldn't get any quiet. That's what really burned out quick was there's just no reprieve. In the van or whatever, there's always music going. It was an industrial part of town, so I couldn't just walk outside and get some fresh air. Trains are going by, and the hustle and bustle of life. It was just all I wanted to do is just be deaf for a little while because it was brutal. It eats your soul. Something that I love so much growing up and still do, it just became my worst enemy.

DH-I think that's why. For the most part, I just stopped completely. What brought you back? That I really started to miss it.

Lurk-Yeah, let's say, what brought you back into it? What reinvigorated the passion, so to speak, for music?

DH-The podcast came first. I was at work, and we were set and finished in this tower, and I had wondered what this podcast app was on my phone. My buddy's like, Oh, it's just people talking and stuff. I'm like, Okay. I got on there, and I don't know how I found it, but it was Mike Herrera's podcast, and he was talking to Chris Rowe from the Ataris. I was like, Well, I like the Ataris. I like MXPX. I put it on. It's basically, it was Mike just talking to Chris on the phone. I listened, and then an hour or something went by, and I was like, Wow, that was really I was like, Man, I should do something like that. I started listening to some other podcasts. Trying to think. I started listening to Ray Harkin's podcast, and then Shane told that podcast. It started around then. I started listening to those, and I was like, I could do this. My dad used to do a radio show. It's just catching up with friends. I I was like, this way, I wouldn't have to tour, but I could connect again with all the friends from tour.

DH-I talked to my wife about it, and she's like, Yeah, go for it. I didn't know how to do anything on the recording side. I was always on the other side of the glass. I had to figure that out. Ironically, I started doing some really DIY. I emailed Shane, I emailed Ray. I didn't know either of them before this. They're both like, Yeah, just go for it. Do it. I was like, All right. Very encouraging. They had written me back by the next morning. I did three episodes, and then my buddy Matt from Emory heard him and liked him. He's like, Hey, you should join this network, Jabberjaw. I'm going to put you on the phone with my buddy Mike, who owns the network. Mike and I had one phone call, and I think for another several years, we never went a day without talking and joined Jabberjaw. Ironically, after five episodes, got connected with Mike Herrera, who then walked me through how to do a mobile recording from your car or your living room or whatever. Then it was off to the races after that. It was strange connecting to the people that showed you that you could do it.

DH-It's weird. It's a weird chain of events. But I was texting Herrera, and I was like, Man, I cannot figure out what's going on with this recorder. He's like, All right, let me finish playing with my kid, and I'm going to call you. I was like, All right. And then we walked through it, and I've used it ever since.

Lurk-Interesting. You basically got into podcasting through music podcasts. Is that what you- Yeah. Yeah, okay. I started listening to Rogan's podcast many years ago, and that's when I first started getting into podcasts. Then I got into No Jumper's earlier episodes, No Jumper from an Adam 22. That was more of an underground… They had a lot of underground DJs and rappers and BMX people that at the time were in my wheelhouse. At this point, I'm coming back listening to bands that I was listening to back in the day, but also trying to figure out new bands and getting… Because there was a brief moment where I left the scene for a while, and that was like no jumper was bringing me back in to wanting to know more because he started interviewing some older hardcore guys from the East Coast because that's where Adam's from. Adam's from, I don't know, Connecticut or something. He's around that little tri-state or a New New York, not New York, New England area. He started having these hardcore bands on a little bit, and I was like, Oh, well, this is interesting because this is a side of the world that I never saw being a fan for the most part.

Lurk-Because back in the day, you didn't have something like this that was so open and forthgiving with behind-the-scene stories from the band. You have to wait for a DVD or something like that. This was also around the time where YouTube was still small, so bands weren't really uploading a bunch of content. Content wasn't necessarily king so far. But that's how I basically got into it. I started a podcast that wasn't hard music-based. It was like, we called it the New Old School. It was me and a buddy of mine, and we had just turned 30 or something like that. We were just shooting the shit about culture, pop culture, music, whatever was going on. We eventually started having guests. I used to run a website, not to jump back a little bit, but I used to run a website similar to Lambgoat. It was called the HRN. I would take news from Lamb Goat, Blabbermouth, the PRP, all these other outlets, and just pick and choose what I wanted to cover of the bands that I liked. In doing that, I also knew that bands are willing to do pretty much anything that you ask them to If you just want them to be a guest on your show or have an interview or whatever, bands are usually like, Yeah, totally.

Lurk-You just have to ask. That's the hard part. People don't ask for things, so that's why they don't get them for the most part. But we started doing the new Old School podcast, which was a trial run of me and JP, who is also a partner in Lambgoat with me. I was like, We can just ask people to be on the podcast as guests. He didn't really believe me. We started reaching out. We had a couple of guests that were interesting. God, I forgot his name. Abdullah. He was from Vice Land. When Vice Land was a channel, he hosted Bon Appetit, the show where you cook with weed or whatever. We had him on. Then, like I said earlier, I'm into electronic music. One of the movies that I would watch as a younger teenager was Party Monster, and that was based on Michael Alig and the club kids of the late '80s. Seth Green and Macaulay Culkin played those characters. Michael went to jail for killing the drug dealer they all were friends with. At one point or another, he got out of jail. I don't know, but we had him on the podcast shortly after that.

Lurk-That was another interesting thing of who you could get on the podcast and all you got to do is ask. Michael also passed away during COVID, but I Not that many people probably care because of what goes on, what he was a part of. But that was an interesting thing. Then at some point, I was working a job. It was my fourth year working a job, and I was like, Dude, what do I want to do with my life? I was like, I'm in the sales job, and I don't know if I want to do this forever. I just reverted back to what was I doing that I was most happiest at? It was doing the HRN or doing something online with music. Then I saw Adam. Adam was conversing with Lambgoat on Twitter. I reached out to Lambgoat because I had been going to Lambgoat for most of my life. I reached out and was like, Why don't you have a podcast? He was like, I just don't have time. I'm one person. I was like, I will do the podcast. Then a month later, we go back and forth, and I start the podcast in 2018, shortly after you.

Lurk-But it's been a wild ride. Podcasting is very It's strange, especially because I still listen to some podcasts, but I do this so much also that I don't have time to listen to a lot of podcasts.

DH-Yeah, absolutely. I'm in the same boat. I don't listen to hardly anything music or podcasts anymore. I value the quiet when I can get it because if I'm not here, I'm at home and it's loud, or if I'm not at home, I'm at work where it's loud.

Lurk-Yeah, you got a family, so it's a whole different ball game. I do not have one of those, so that's Family, and I'm a general foreman for a construction of a plumbing company, so I'm always out in the noise and the weather and all that stuff.

DH-Yeah, it's constant.

Lurk-What are some of the wildest guests that you've had on your podcast? Because after a while, you understand that you can get a lot of people, but I'm sure there are guests that you didn't think you could get that you had the opportunity to talk to, whether it's in person or online.

DH-Yeah, there's a lot. There's guests that came to me that I was like, What the hell? That happens a lot, actually. That was some of the weirdest ones. I have I told the Chino story 100 times, but Kat Von D came to me. Danny Trejo came to me. Yeah, it's weird. Shapiro over at Sound I was like, You want to talk to Taylor from Hanson? He's a friend of mine. I was like, You know what? I actually would do that. That was a great conversation. He's a great dude. People lost their damn minds when that one came out, looked literally lost their minds. Everyone that ever had a crush on or was into Hanson as a kid or a young adult lost their minds. So many emails coming through. Are you kidding me? This isn't real. There's no way this happened. Like, No, it's going to happen. It's real. There's people I've chased for years. That's something I'm struggling with lately is the whole process. It's weird. There's a whole lot going on in my head right now with podcasting. Henry Rollins has turned me down nine times. Okay. Seven times personally, two times through management.

DH-The last time he turned me down, he emailed me and said, Hey, best of luck. He usually does, but he's not into it right now. I was like, Dude, no worries. This has been nine times. My rule is reach out. They say no, wait six months, hit them up again. Maybe they're in a different head space. At this point with that one, I was like, All right. I didn't require an explanation at all. But then later that evening, I get another email from him, and he's like, Hey, I just want to clarify why I'm saying no. It's not you at all. It's not your show. It's the medium of podcasting I don't want to be a part of anymore. I don't want to put him on blast, but he doesn't like the medium of podcasting for some very specific reasons. I was like, Dude, again, thank you for telling me why. That makes a lot of sense. It did make a lot of sense. Now that I know that, I'll I'll back off. I'm still coming to the shows, and I'll say hi to you every time, but I'm not going to ask you about the podcast.

DH-If a young kid, there's this young kid that does a podcast.

Lurk-The punk guy? The punk guy?

DH-Not Little Punk People. It's another kid from Ireland. He's got a really cool accent. It's so awesome to listen to. But Henry did his show because he's like, I will say no to a young person. But also that young person is not going to be doing what older people do with interviews. That was one where the chase ended. But anyway, I'm rambling here, but I've been struggling a lot with podcasting in general, just the medium of it.

Lurk-I'd like to get into that because I also sometimes struggle with it.

DH-It's something I've been struggling with for a while. I stopped briefly.

Lurk-How long was that gap?

DH-A three weeks, maybe a month.

Lurk-Okay.

DH-About just having panic attacks and things like that to where it's like the pressure of doing it, it got really big, and then it became a job. The pressure of doing it every week, the anxiety of… Because I don't put much stock in necessarily the caliber of person that's coming on. If it's some huge rock star, I never put that much on it. Like, Oh, my God, I can't believe in 10 minutes, I'm going to be talking to so and so. But there's enough anxiety with it of not wanting to waste their time. I want it to be enjoyable. I want it to be for me and for them. Also, when your art form is having to have a conversation that's real and also keep it interesting for someone who's not involved with it that's going to want to listen to it, that's also a struggle. I just noticed there's a lot of things that were coming up that way. With the panic attacks, a lot of it, My show delves into a lot of dark spots and some pretty rough things, and I don't know why. It's just how it happens. I find myself rehashing those things in my head where it's like it's sticking to me.

Lurk-Then they're whatever they're talking about or whatever you're talking about.

DH-Yeah, whatever they're talking about is adding to things that I've already experienced and talked about because those are in me, like those are part of my life. But adding that to the sauce was really screwing things up in my head. Then just knowing all day, at work or something, all right, six hours, I got to talk to so and so. It's always in your head Then the other struggle I've been struggling with is why… This just sounds so lame. We're podcasting, and I'm shitting on podcasting.

Lurk-Yeah, this is good.

DH-Why are we podcasting? Why do I give a shit if I get to talk to any… Why do I put time and effort in to build relationships and to be able to talk to some of these people? They're regular people, and I truly believe that. They're regular people just like us. That's why I sell other podcasters. They're all freaked out about it. I'm like, Dude, why does someone have to say yes that's not the person themselves to talk to somebody. You want to talk to someone, walk up and talk to them. Anyways, I'm rambling, but-That's what this is for. The struggle right now is why Why does it matter? Why should I put effort in my world to talk to somebody that's probably not going to remember it 20 minutes later? Why do I need that validation that when I meet somebody, it's not, Hey, I'm Dewey. It's, Hey, I'm Dewey from Anatomy of Ghost. Hey, I'm Dewey from Portugal Band. Hey, I'm Dewey. Oh, hey. It worked. Oh, ask him about his podcast. Why is it not enough that I am who I am? Why do I chase having something tied to it? I've done it ever since I've been in bands.

DH-You always get introduced as so and so from so and so. I talked to… I don't even have an example, but it's always so and so from so and so. Another thing we can get into, too, this is going to be interesting because of your career, but I have a very weird relationship with the news sites that I've been pretty vocal about.

Lurk-We can get into that, obviously. Because I just took over a Lambgoat a handful of years ago. I joined the team doing the podcast. But like I said earlier, I've been visiting since I was 2000, 2001.

DH-Sure. That's something like Chino and I would talk about that stuff because his episodes, specifically, I could just sit there with my watch and just count down when they get released to when they are transcribed word for word onto the internet. That always made me feel dirty when it would get picked up on the blogs because I don't think a lot of people know that a lot of podcasters will send the blog sites their episode. Hey, I just had so and on, and he said this, you won't believe it. It first happened for me with Justin Pearson from Billion Bands, accidentally said when Dead Cross was releasing their first record, I didn't know it wasn't supposed to be known, and neither did he. Then all the sites picked it up, and he texted me. He's like, Oh, my God, I shouldn't have said that. I was like, Dude, I am so sorry. He's like, It's not your fault. But after that, there's so many podcasters that just chase that headline. They're trying to They're good at it, too, because they'll just play cool and then stick it in there at the last second, and I know when it happens, and I'm like, You fucker.

DH-That's what's killing podcasting is chasing that headline. There's no real substance to most of it either. It just has a release date or this is the first song someone should hear from them. Or in Chino's case, He mentioned some things about Steph smoking a lot of weed. He also told some incredible stories that he's only told me privately that I looked at him as we were recording. I was like, You sure you want to say this? He's like, I think you can hear it in the episode. He's like, No, I want to talk about it, talking about Paris and the attack in Paris and all that stuff. All these things that were monumentally changed, the band, what they do, how they travel, all things, and all the sites picked up on was, Chino's annoyed that Steph smoked so much weed and probably ruined a bunch of shit. To which I texted him afterwards like, Dude, less than two hours. He's like, I know. I saw it. I'm trying to go about this the right way because you came from the podcast to Lamb Goat, and now you run Lamb Goat. I'm in the position where I literally get upset whenever I see the show get picked up somewhere for a headline.

DH-The reason I do is because when someone else sees that, and I'm not talking about the people that look at the website, but when the guest sees that, I feel like they're not going to want to come back again because they felt like they got used, and they don't know that I would never send that out for promotion or guess what so and so said. I I had to be clear about that. I also understand it's a business, and I understand I go to those sites sometimes and get news as well myself. I'm completely guilty of doing that. But what happens with what I do I've just always gotten weird about it because there's a lot of people that won't do podcasts anymore because stuff got picked up wrong or out of context, or it broke up a band, or it ruined some relationship. But then there's no… I think the phrase that I hear a lot is, Well, you said it. It's like there's also a responsibility here because these aren't live, that if something gets said, either send the conversation to the person and say, Are you cool with everything in here? Or, Hey, you really said some stuff here.

DH-Do you want this released? And they'll say yes or I know. Anyways, I struggle with the validity of… I believe in the meet. I believe in conversation and connection. I'm just struggling with why does it matter that I've had so and so on the show? Because people then want to talk to me about it, and I'm like, Okay, cool, but why doesn't my wife want to go out and talk to Jerry Cantrell? Why doesn't my son want to go? They don't give a shit.

Lurk-Why do I? Well, you wanted to at some point. That's why.

DH-Yeah, I guess that's right. Because I...

Lurk-Because it's not to cut you off, but it's-No, absolutely. It's a different person. Not saying that we are special people by any means. We just have interests in certain things that most people don't. In my day-to-day, and I'll get to your news outlet question, or your news outlet thing, too, after this. But in your day My day-to-day, the reason why I enjoy talking to... I'm enjoying this conversation, and I enjoy talking to people in the music world that do podcasts as well, is because no one in my day day, real life does anything remotely like this. They don't even really listen to the music that I listen to. There's things that I do that I think are fucking really cool that no one's going to give any shit about. I battle with that on a day-to-day basis. Like, well, am I wasting my time in life doing this? Because it doesn't correlate to tangible, real-life touching, not notoriety, but my friend group doesn't give a shit. My family doesn't. I can't explain it to anybody, really. They just think I'm talking to random people on the internet. These bands, I'm not... Granted, your catalog of guests are big and small.

Lurk-You have a lot of bands that are well known throughout many generations and genres, right? Whereas Lambgoat focuses on a specific little niche of that world, no one's going to care that I'm talking to Poison the Well or the Red Cord or Convert. You know what I mean? No one in my day-to-day gives a shit. I also have a problem Whenever I have an episode scheduled, I'm always like, I don't fucking want to do it because I know, like you, it's not going to fucking matter. It doesn't really matter. But then I get done with the conversation and I'm like, Man, that was fucking dope. You I mean, and that's why I do that. But I guess why people would care is, yeah, there's the downside of the outlets doing click bait headlines and stuff like that. I totally understand that. But You've probably created your own audience where people enjoy the way you talk to artists, right? So there's going to be a time where someone's going to come to the podcast for a specific guest, maybe. But the chances are people are probably listening multiple times because of the way the podcast is handled by the host.

Lurk-That's my thought. That's probably why the Van Flip is very small potatoes when it comes to the big podcast. But to touch on the outlet thing, I do know that people submit their podcast all the time because obviously now being behind the curtain in Lambgoat, I receive those things. I've never sent my podcast out at all. Ever. We did release the first episode, which was with Chris Franz from Attila, and he spoke about the beef that they had with Emmure. Ap picked that up and that blew up. But from that, I guess they squashed the beef or something like that. They reached out to each other on Twitter and talked about it. But I agree. I don't think that it's We don't cover podcast stuff. News topics aren't necessarily based on podcast stuff. One, because I don't want to sit through a bunch of podcast and try to find a clickbait headline or clickbait story or something like that. But if something comes up or whatever, like an interview or something like that, we might reference it. The information comes from so and so on this particular episode of this or this interview done backstage at this festival.

Lurk-But I agree that more people are definitely not wanting to do the podcast. I got into it because I wanted to have that intimate conversation with artists and find out things that I've always been curious about or to learn something about someone or some facet of the industry that I just wasn't aware about. Then I also know that there are many people in bands that probably listen to not just my podcast, but all of our podcasts. I want to talk about the inside and outside of the industry, too, and shed light on maybe some things that people don't necessarily realize. One of the things I always say is there's no money in hardcore. There's no money in hardcore for the most part. There's rarely money in metal, but you have a better chance, probably, of getting a little bit more financial success in metal because it's just a bigger genre. Some kids probably, because I'm guilty of it, too, when I was younger, some kids look at bands and they think like, Oh, fuck, dude, they got it going on. They're fucking doing this full-time. They are getting paid. They're on MTV. They're on Fuse.

Lurk-This was back when I was a kid. Then you grow up and you realize, No, everyone's homeless and no one's got any money, and the record labels are fucking everybody over, and this, that, the other. I try to make it a mouthpiece for, not the uneducated, but maybe the unknown of, maybe we'll talk about some cool stories that the band has. But I I just want to know, Hey, this guy does a real job when he's not on tour, or he does this side hustle to compensate for rent, and this, that, and the other. I think, like you said, people are worried to come on podcast because of the clickbait headlines. But the thing is, I don't spring anything. I could be a much better interviewer/podcaster if I was more adamant about digging under the skin stuff that certain people don't want to talk about. But I also don't want to make it awkward. You know what I mean? Awkward could definitely make more listens and clicks, and people would know about it more. But I wanted it to be, not a safe space, but I want them to feel comfortable talking with me about certain things.

Lurk-I don't get a lot of repeat guests just because in my head, I want to get new people all the time. But with people, I've done 150 plus of these now, and there have been a handful of people that have been on multiple times. The good thing is, is I get to meet or I get to see these people in person, and we've already have some rapport online through the podcast that it's an easier conversation. Chances are they're more willing to do stuff with Lambgoat. They're more willing to do stuff with me because I'm not that got you reporter type of thing. The thing with Lambgoat that we try to strive, at least with this regime, factual base, take your opinion out of the posts or whatever your news topic, just report. You don't want to give out like, Well, person XXX is a dickhead, and Good that they've got their tour canceled or whatever happened. We try to stay unbiased. I'm not saying that Alex was like that the entire time, because obviously Alex was just running the website himself, so he could do what he wanted. He wasn't really doing much in the real world.

Lurk-He lived in a rural area of Pennsylvania. He didn't really attend shows or do anything. It was easy for him to be more of a provocateur of things because he's not involved, so to speak, whereas I'm at shows all the time. It is part of my life. I didn't stop going to shows necessarily when I stepped away from hardcore or music like that. I I kept going, and I still do to this day a couple of shows a week if I can. That's also a tight road to walk because I do run a Lambgoat. There are going to be times where topics and stories do come out, like the Every time I die thing, where you have to post about the bad things, but you know these guys, and it sucks. I did have Jordan on the podcast after they broke up, and that was a real tough one. It was a very long one, like hours long, longest I've ever done. It was like one o'clock in the morning when we got off my time. But we didn't put it out. That wasn't-Oh, that's the one.

DH-Okay. I heard that story of that. He put in a podcast for several hours, and it never came out because he went through everything and didn't want it out, right?

Lurk-Yeah. Well, there was- And you didn't put it out, which is kudos to you. Yeah, there were other people- Because you could have done whatever you wanted. Oh, no, I know. And I knew. That was numbers. You know what I mean? That was numbers.

DH-Absolutely.

Lurk-I cared about that band so much, and I care about Jordan, Keith, and everybody involved so much that That would ultimately change the trajectory of what may come in the future. Not saying that they are going to get along or they're going to get back together or anything like that, but that could have definitely been a nail and One of the nails in the coffin or something like that. I don't want to be involved in that. Not to say that I'm above that or anything like that. It's just that band, I truly do care about it. It's tough for... I just talked to somebody today, and it's still tough to listen to Every Time I die, currently, just because of everything. But it is what it is. Not that I am a stand-up gentleman by any means, but I do have some morals.

DH-See, that's kudos to you on that, because there's a lot of people out there would have said, Well, you said it, and put it out, and that's fucked. I don't know. I respect what you guys do, too, because you're providing a service. It's like, we're providing a service. It's podcasting as a service industry. It's, yes, we get something from it. Full transparency, I make money at this. I absolutely make money at this, and That's also another thing where I'm like, these people I'm talking to aren't getting any money for this. Yeah, that's true. They're doing this on their own time, and then I make money at it. I didn't always make money at it. It was a long road to get there. By maybe the end of the fifth year, started to, and now it does pretty well. I'm proud of that because I've worked really hard at it, but also that adds to the stress of why Why? But then the friendships you make through this seemingly would be lifelong friendships out of this with people that you never thought you'd come across or cross paths not being on tour and things like that.

DH-Hearing people call you a nickname, someone you've looked up to for your entire life gives you a nickname because you are close to them because of this is super weird, but also super awesome. It's like, That's really cool. Or someone will just text you out of the blue. You're like, I never thought I would ever know this person or even meet this person. But then on your birthday or like-Yes, exactly. Oh, man, I just did an interview and it was nowhere near what we had or whatever. Or you just get a random tell. You're like, Holy shit. But then I struggle again with, but why does that matter than my best friend texting me and saying, Hey, good job? No, but this guy said it. Why?

Lurk-Because there's some validation. There's some form of validation because the way I look at it, again, like I said earlier, no one in my day-to-day life understands or realizes, again, because they probably don't care about this type of music and stuff like that, so they don't even realize that the band or When I interviewed Jacob from Converge, I was like, or Darryl from Glassjaw. Well, a lot of people got the Daryl from Glassjaw thing because I just am a wild fan of that band and have been for 20 plus years. My day-to-day friends know because I have every other shirt that they've ever made. They know that that was a big band for me, so they that. But I'm like, Dude, Converge is one of the fucking cornerstones of hardcore or modern and hardcore metalcore. It's like, that's huge. No one knows who converges really in the grand spectrum of music, but that little pocket of the world does. That's a little tip of a little feather in the hat for me, a little checkmark on the boxes and stuff like that. There are guests, and Chino is one of those guests that I would love to have on because, again, I've watched that band or listened to that band for 30 years at this point, almost.

Lurk-It'd be crazy to get those people on the pod. There are people that I don't think will be ever on the pod, but it is what it is. I try to keep it remotely around heavy music or extreme music, keep it adjacent to that for the most part. So it does limit me and my guests. But again, I use it because I watched that No Jumper podcast in his early infancy days, and a lot of rappers or a lot of artists that that show got known a little bit better because of that. So there is a mixture that I try to do of like, yes, Lambgoat is a legacy-based outlet. It's been around for longer than most other outlets have been. It's covered metal and hardcore for longer than anyone else out there for the most part. There are bands, and there's people that go to the website daily, every day. They're around my age. Some people are are addicted to it. Bands are addicted to it. Look in the comments and this, that, and the other. But there's also... Fuck, I got to space down. But no, okay, yeah. I tried to maybe showcase some of the younger up and coming bands to the audience that's already embedded at Lambgoat.

Lurk-But then I also want younger kids to know about the older stuff, too, and I want to do a nice mix of both, so to speak. I juggle that all the time. That does hurt reach and listens and downloads when you're doing small bands that no one gives a shit about. But there are bands that we've had on the podcast that if people look back now, they're much bigger, and we had them on at such an early time. To me, that makes like, Okay, well, we were there in the beginning or near the beginning. I'm not saying that we found these bands or anything like that, but that's also a thing that probably keeps me doing it. I will say that I had a great time the year that I did not do it just because it wasn't stressing me out of book it. Because I'm the only one that does this. I don't have someone that helps book or schedule or anything like that. I hit you up, I sent you an invitation, and then here we are. Yeah, it should be. Yeah. But again, you have other shows you're competing with at a much larger, have bigger operations, have budget, so to speak.

Lurk-I do get a couple of pennies every month from the podcast, but I can't go out to eat a couple of times on that with that money I've made. It's for the love for the most part, but I also know it's part of the outlet, it's part of the branding, it's part of the... You post things on social media, so people go to the website. This is like, I'm posting this on Apple Music and Spotify. If people find it, they might visit the website. It's all like a funnel to the website for the most part. But then again, it is some self-gratifying talking with guests who I've loved for most my life or establishing new conversations with new bands and forming relationships with those people as well. There is some self- It's self-serving.

DH-There's There's times, there's a lot to this.

Lurk-But you're right. The stress is fucking… I question it every day, too.

DH-It's stress, and then I try not to care, go into it. I do like The stress lets me know I still care, but I try to not focus on that. There's times I had Monkey on from Corn, and I love Korn since I was a kid. I had their posters on my wall, and that first record changed my world. Then fast forward to a few years ago when we did it, and I'm giving him pedal ideas. I'm like, How to fuck with his pedals in ways he hadn't seen before. He's writing them down so we can try it out. What the fuck is going on here? The stuff like that is cool. We were talking about bands that got bigger. When I reached out to Courtney from Spiritbox, Spiritbox 7,000 listeners on Spotify. I was like, This is insane, amazing music. I just hit her up on her personal email that was on the website. She's still doing data entry work or whatever, and we did an awesome episode. I've not been able to get her back since. There's seven people between me and her that I could send her a text or whatever, but I'd rather just do it the right way.

Lurk-Yeah, I get that.

DH-My friend Charlie is a publicist, and Charlie is wonderful, but Charlie also has to go through those people as well. If they don't give her time, she can't do anything about it. God bless her, she tries so hard. But then I was like, Right, if it's not going to happen, it's not going to happen. I've already had her on. It was a great conversation. Some pretty amazing stories, touring Russia, some drunk cab driver watching porn while driving them through a field to get to a show. Hilarious shit. But they're still on the come up at that point. They were so small, and then they just blew up. I was so happy because they were so good. I could hear it then. We, by no means, discovered anyone. But seeing that trajectory was amazing. Another thing I want to touch on real quick is going back to something we were talking about earlier with Getting into these subjects with people, not want to make it awkward or whatever I think is what we were saying. For me, I don't feel like… If I was to take emails and messages and categorize them on what they were about or how they started.

DH-The ones that started with, I love the first 12 minutes of your show because they want to know how I'm going to segue into whatever deep conversation is going to happen because you have that little bit of small talk, get to know you stuff, and then when's it going to happen? When's it going to sit? They love to hear that awkwardness because by the end, it's not awkward anymore. But even if I know part of a story of somebody and what they've been through, I don't feel like I deserve or have earned the right to talk to them about it until we have a rapport. If that rapport doesn't happen, I don't bring it up. But I don't feel like I can say, Hey, how are you doing? Tell me about your kid dying. I haven't earned the right to get to there yet because I haven't given I don't think I'm doing anything of myself to them yet to lighten the load a little bit. You got to give and take. You got to give some of yourself to get anything. That's one thing I view as podcasting, putting ourselves out in the world every week.

DH-Takes some balls because that's there for a long time, and a lot of people don't have the fortitude to do that or the confidence. But like I said, I don't feel directly off the bat that I have the right to even ask about those things. They come up and we dig into them and it's natural, sure. But you'll never hear me just go right into something. Even if they're hinting at it, if I don't feel like it's the right time yet, I'll glaze over it, but it's in my head. Like, Okay, the next time we'll come around to this. Maybe we'll dig it a little deeper. Karina from Puscifer, she's been on twice, and she was a little nervous to come on. We went into some insane conversation. My dad just died. We went in some conversation about grief that I'll never forget. That made her tell her husband, Greg Edwards, from failure, Hey, you should do this one because I had a good time. It's a safe spot. He came on. We had a blast. But he was not against podcasts, but he doesn't do a lot of them because of that reason. He feels out there.

DH-She's like, No, you should do this. Or I had Elaina Hicks on. She went by Bonnie Rotten for a long time as a porn star. Awful story of kidnapping and drugs and literally just got destroyed and spit out the other end. I ended up marrying Jessie James, who's a massive Monster Garage guy, in Motorcycle. He does firearms. She texted me afterwards and said, Hey, I told Jessie about the show and how it went because he hates when she does interviews because people just go at her about everything. He was super stoked on how it went and really glad she did it because I let her talk. I let her say what she wanted to say and didn't try to bait her into anything because that's not what I do. I love when those comments come from people that were actually on that had a good time because it's like, Okay, we did it right. Those things haunt me back up again when I'm thinking of stopping.

Lurk-Yeah, I have that because I think about stopping all the time, and I'm sure people would love me to do so. But again, I'm in the the lamb-goat verse. Lamb-goat is synonymous with anonymous and sometimes negative comments. But those don't only pertain to the bands or news stories that are posted. I receive a lot of negative comments about me in general. So I read those too. At this particular point, at my age, I'm also like, I just don't give a shit about those comments in general. I can read them It doesn't bother me. But every now and then, I might start feeling like, Why am I fucking doing this podcast? A comment on YouTube will pop up about like, Oh, this fucking was the best interview I've heard from so and so. Great job. Or I'll get somebody replying to a social media post saying something similar to that. I'm like, Okay, I know that there's going to be a lot of negativity on the internet regardless, so it takes a lot more for someone to post a positive comment, especially in the lamb-goat verse. I take those to heart. I still think that I'm a horrible podcaster.

Lurk-I still think I'm a horrible interviewer in general. I lose my train of thought quite often, and I have to just go with that, or I have a hard time paying attention to the guests when they're talking about long things. In my... Lambgoat has been around so long, a lot of people just reference old Lambgoat stuff that I don't know everything, so I have to then be like, Yeah, I'll play along. But I do my homework. As far as Lambgoat and music history is somewhat concerned, anytime that I can and have time to, I'm going down rabbit holes, finding out more and more because I am so nervous about not being exposed, but just like, this guy's a poser, obviously. Clearly, he doesn't know anything about this or that or whatever. Of course, I'm not going to know everything about every band or every person, and I'm not going to bring up everything that the listener or the viewer wants to hear about either. Because like you, I'm not going to bring up things that I know are going to be awkward for the guest or whatnot, because I'm not here to, like we said earlier, I'm not here to get clickbait headlines and stuff like that.

Lurk-Now, if someone picks up something on the podcast, that's different. But we just started doing clips of the podcast. The podcast has been around for four years, and it's basically just me shooting it out on the website. Or no, me shooting it out on social media. Then whoever listened, listened. It wasn't like I was marketing the shit out of it. It wasn't even on the actual website until a year ago. Now, there's a podcast section on the website because we took it over and we implemented that. I had to upload all those podcasts and do all that shit. So it took a while. But, yeah, I don't know. It's just one of those things where you just… I haven't done anything like this for this long as well. I didn't realize the commitment was going to be so grand. And here we are, 150 plus episodes through it. Again, you've had yours for multiple years. Ray's had his since, I don't know, 2011 or something like that.

DH-Ten some years.

Lurk-Ten, 11 years. There are, and Jost is doing his. I don't know what the frequency of everyone's output is I tried to do one a week. I have yet to be able to go a year and have 52 episodes. I might do 51 or 50, but I tried to stay to that as much as possible to be more consistent because obviously, consistency is key and key to everything. But it is a task, and like you said, a job, and it does become that. You do have to spend time thinking about it. Like I told you earlier on, I don't do any research for the most part. I want it to be as casual as possible. The beginning of my podcast are usually ridiculously awkward because depending on the guest, I may just be like, Holy shit, what am I doing here with this person? Because again, I do sometimes feel like a giant outsider because I'm not in a band. I don't come from... I was in the music scene, but on a very small local, regional scale. Nothing big. No one knows who I am. I just tweeted Alex about fucking making a podcast, and then you blink your eye later, and I own the company, and I'm doing 150 plus podcasts.

Lurk-It's strange where life takes you, obviously. I think that also keeps me doing the podcast, that whole how it came about and where it got me to. I have this thing about saying yes to everything that comes my way. Whether that's good or bad, I do take the opportunity to have the experience of whatever is coming, whether it's I know it's going to suck or I know it's going to be good because sucky things become great things later in life that you can think about and talk about and laugh about. You have that experience or whatnot. I try to do that as much as possible, but it's been a wild world because Obviously, there's way more podcasts than ever now. It was a little easier in the earlier 2018 when I just started because there weren't that many out there. Now, KnotFest has a whole podcast situation and Metal Injection, Metal Sucks, or whoever has podcasts and stuff like that. They have multiple people working on them, and I'm just here by myself, treading water in the deepest part of the pool, just being like, Can I I'll get you on my podcast. There are people that don't want anything to do with the website or the brand.

Lurk-This is something I have to deal with, but that's also something I have to combat as a brand and just try to not... Again, I don't want to make it a safe space because there has to be some rough edges around Lambgoat for it to remain Lambgoat. But I want to be able to have people who don't like Lambgoat be on the podcast, chat with me, and then be able to be like, Okay, I get it. The comment section or the thing I don't like about Lambgoat is not the person behind Lambgoat, whereas it might have been prior. I don't know. I didn't have a day-to-day with Alex for 20 years. It is what it is, but Here we are.

DH-Yeah. Dude, I was watching an interview with Marilyn Manson the other day, and I remember it wasn't from too long ago, but he was saying that… Trying to think how he phrased it. You don't judge an artist by the people that love them. You judge them equally by the people that hate them and the people that love them because it gives you a clearer picture and more of a thing to not take the negative as negative, but as a positive that you're making people feel things. That's the goal. Feel something good, feel something bad. It's maybe they're having a bad day, maybe they're not. Maybe they just hate you. I get bad comments all the time. I get bad messages all the time. What the hell is wrong? How did you know? This guy's a legit moron. Things like that. I just laugh. That's the other reason I struggle with podcasting, too, is if I didn't have the podcast, I would be completely off social media 100%. I don't say this to bring up a social media conversation because that is podcasting 101. If you have nothing to say and you have no idea what you're doing, you're going to talk about social media for an hour and a half.

DH-Oh, my God. In my day, it's the easiest subject to go for an hour on is social media. But I would be completely off because I'd have nothing to post about because that's all I do is post a new episode. That's it. That's why I have Instagram on my phone. I don't use it for anything else. But I find myself scrolling through it for a long time like, Why am I doing this? I have nothing against the internet. There's a lot of sites and stuff I'll go to and stuff, but social media itself, I don't like it. I would love to have it out of my life, and I think I can't do that until the podcast is over. I joked with a friend. I think we have a mutual friend, John Bady, from the Brutally Speaking podcast, who just got out of foot surgery a couple of hours ago. We talk about stuff like this, and I was like, Man, maybe I'll just go to episode 400 and stop.

Lurk-I was going to ask, do you see a light at the end of the tunnel?

DH-I don't, but I think if I was to stop, I would stop on a random episode.

Lurk-Just fade to black.

DH-Or 02. Yeah, just be gone and leave that to the world. I wouldn't take it down because I believe in all of it. But it's definitely nice.

Lurk-You're becoming a part of the story. That's also another I learned that with the Jordan podcast. I was like, Yes, I'm losing out on a lot of positive things for the podcast and possibly Lambgoat. Yes, I'm losing that. But I'm now a part of this weird story somehow, which I never thought I'd be a part of because you obviously have heard about that episode and didn't know that it was... So part of that is another thing, too, that I like doing this is because I get to become part of the lure, so to speak, of the scene or the industry or something like that. And that is also, again, self-satisfying for me. But I don't get a lot out of the podcast, so to speak, especially compensation-wise. It's just I guess it's like a hobby, and people do understand that I am a podcaster. None of my friends listen to this podcast. It is what it is. But I like intertwining myself in the story of whatever. So self-gratification or whatever, I'm sure I'm going to get some shit for that. But that's part of the reason why I started it. I wanted to interview my fans differently than the way I used to do it when I had my old website or something like that.

Lurk-The reason I... And I know Rogan gets a lot of shit because he's just one of the biggest podcasters on the world, and he has a lot of guests He says a lot of things. He has a lot of opinions. But that really changed a lot for me. It just seemed like a conversation. Here I am just watching or listening to two people talk for three hours or something like that. That blew my mind after a while. I just wanted to do something similar to that and make it remotely interesting enough for someone who's a casual fan of not only Lambgoat, but possibly the band, to enjoy what I'm extracting out of the conversation. It's taken me a long time. Again, I said I'm not the best podcaster or interviewer. I think very lowly of myself in in those buckets. But it took me a long time to shut the fuck up and let the guests talk. You learn a lot of things because it's not so structured. In the beginning, I did research and I would get way more nervous. Not saying I don't get nervous, but I would do some things and get some topics up or whatever.

Lurk-But then I started realizing, these people already fucking talk about whatever's on their Wikipedia or whatever they've already said on a podcast or whatever. I'm just going to come and talk to them about whatever rabbit hole they want to bring up. I've had hour long conversations just about aliens, not about the band or the person that's in the band, just talking about random shit. Or I had David Bland from Full of Hell. You said some dark shit. You had some dark shit on podcast. David was on our podcast, and his dad had died from COVID that week or something like that. I was like, Dude, we do not have to do this right now. But he was very adamant about doing so. He talked about it, and It's also somewhat therapeutic for these people, too. Not just in that aspect, but just in general. I've learned that over the years, that it serves them, too, to get a lot of stuff out that maybe regular interviews don't allow or whatever, or this, that, the other. It's a love-hate relationship with podcasting, like I'm sure you have. I don't foresee me stopping in the near future.

Lurk-I don't know. Maybe I'd like to hand this particular podcast off to somebody else's host, but I would like to still podcast. I just feel like there are other podcasts out there that people that are in bands that are just better at it. But again, that's me looking down on myself and just being more hard on myself than I probably need to be. I'm sure there's people that... Because I do know people that enjoy and follow the podcast and who have for years. They're always commenting and messaging me about how this podcast or this episode was good, and I love that you talked about that. I don't know. I'm surprised as shit that I'm 150 plus episodes in. I never thought that.

DH-Well, there's a few things that come to here. Excuse me. For one, the Jordan episode.

Lurk-I hate bringing that up. I hate bringing that up. I hate bringing that episode up because I know I don't want Jordan to feel weird about it, about that episode. I don't think he does. I don't think he does. Yeah, okay.

DH-But I don't… That's the thing. I'm not a diehard, every time I die fan. I had Keith on because I wanted to talk to him. Interesting guy. I haven't listened to an Every Time I Die record since Hot Damn. Damn. And saw them live twice because I was working the show. I never went on my own. Then I listened to Radical, which was great. It was a great record. But I saw them… What's the… Peripherally. They're always in my periphery because I wasn't a huge fan. They had some good parts. I love Keith's lyrics. He shouts and repeats some very profound lines, and those are my favorite part of that band. Then my buddy Goose starts playing drums for them, so I started paying attention again. I was like, Oh, Goose isn't that awesome? I went and saw him with… Shit, I can't remember what band it was. Better Lovers? No, it was every time I Die, but it was on a huge tour. It was at the Moda Center here at Buck. They were opening. They were opening the show They had a Church Cathedral light set up, and they were the opener. Andy from Fall Out Boy was there.

DH-He's a buddy of mine, and ran to him in the back. What fucking… Oh, it was Mastodon and Coheed.

Lurk-Yeah, I was going to say Coheed.

DH-Yeah, because I was there to see Josh from Coheed and Travis. Anyway, not a huge fan of that band. The world is a huge fan of that band. What I wanted to say about that is, first off, I'm curious if you actually deleted it or it's just sitting somewhere because that also says something. But also the fact that Jordan is going to bring up that episode every interview he does from now on. I think that's worth more than the damage that it would have caused to release it and the numbers you would have gotten that would be fleeting and not stuck I think you've done the long game with that by having him every couple of months bring it up again to where it becomes lore, and it becomes myth, and it becomes legend, and no one will ever hear it. That is fantastic from a podcast standpoint. I think you really did the right thing, but you're also getting benefits from doing the right thing in that aspect without hurting anyone. I love that. That's That's fantastic. I appreciate that. The other thing that comes to mind is talking about letting people talk and being a conversationalist.

DH-If you want to learn in one hour how to be a better podcaster and listener, interview Buzz from the Melvins. I've done that. Then interview him twice because he speaks in a way that is not human. He finishes his sentence four seconds after he stops talking, which throws everything off. Fat Mike, interview Fat Mike. Same thing. He answers the question he wish you asked him. So just don't go in with any questions. But there's a thing called the Fred Rogers's Rule, I think. It's called Fred Rogers's Rule, where you wait one to two seconds after someone stops talking because they're probably going to say something else as it comes to that's even better. That's one thing I learned very early on. Then interviewing Buzz face-to-face next to a minivan was also very challenging. But then the second time I had him, I knew what I was in for. I knew his cadence, and I matched it, and it made a much better time. Those are two guys to really practice. You had Buzz on, so I'll check the episode out.

Lurk-That was what I was really nervous about. I was really nervous about that one. I didn't know anything really about it. Everyone is. Why I didn't really know anything about how he did interviews by any means. But again, there are bands that are huge in the world that I'm in that I just am like, Oh, I don't want to fuck it up. You know what I mean? I feel like I'm under a microscope with fucking being lambgoat. It's one thing, but I definitely was nervous. But I was glad that he was like, I was like, Oh, this guy fucking talks. I was just like, I'm just going to sit back, let him drive.

DH-He has the best laugh. I love Buzz. He's been a fantastic person to meet through this show, and he's been on two or three times. He's always got a good quote about Kurt Cobain. He's always got an amazing quote about vintage gear because as a musician myself, vintage guitars were new when people bought them. That's why I like new guitars. Jimi Hendrix didn't go buy a vintage guitar. He bought a new guitar, and it sounded great. My new guitar sounds great. He's just very matter of fact. I think that's why people are nervous to interview him, because he's a matter of fact. He is basically responsible for Nirvana becoming as huge as they were. Dale, from the Melvins, who I've had on three times, was in Nirvana. There's always good stories for that. People are always like, Why don't you talk more about Kurt Cobain? Tired of talking about Kurt Cobain. That's why. Losing my train of thought here, but I was trying to… There was one other thing I wanted to mention to you about… I lost it.

Lurk-Well, to answer your question about the Buckley podcast. It is on a USB in my closet. It's not on a computer. Nice. Just for the sake of it not being online. I keep it there because At one point, it's just daunting to listen to it all, probably. It's just fucking six hours long or something like that. It's an insane long piece of media. At some point, I do want to go back and listen to it just because there was so much in there that I'd probably, I forgot 89% of it or something like that. But I also was like, I can't have it on my computer because anything could happen and it could get out. But I may listen to it at some point and then throw it away or delete it or something like that. Because again, I don't necessarily know if it needs to be out there. But, yeah, to answer your question, it is not on online, per se or on a device. It's just sitting in a box in a USB in the closet.

DH-Let it grow in lore for another three, four years till better lovers have a couple of records out, many eyes have a couple of records. I don't know if they're going to have a couple of records out. It doesn't sound like they will. Then hit up Jordan, and hopefully him and Keith will maybe come back together somehow and say, I want to send this to both of you. If you guys agree, I want to put this out on the Lambgoat website for $5 and donate all that money to some charity that you both agree upon because people will pay that money and download it. Oh, yeah. When Louis CK puts out a special, he makes millions of dollars. It's genius on the website, but say, Yeah, we'll donate it to a charity or whatever, but then the world can finally hear it. That may be a cool idea. The thing I was going to say is I remembered it. I always talk about podcasts being a journal for my kids when I'm gone. I did the math, and it's 27 days straight of me talking so far. It's in some insane number, 27 or 29 days.

DH-But then someone flipped it on me. I don't remember what guest it was, and I said, Wouldn't you think they would listen to it when you're gone? I wonder why you spent so much time not actually just hanging out with them. I was like, Son of a bitch. You just ruined my entire ethos of the show. But then I'm talking to my mom last night. We were talking about my dad because my mom doesn't listen to the podcast. She doesn't even think she knows what it's called. My dad listened to every episode. I did an episode two days after he died. The intro, outro, the episode was already done. Now, every year on the day he died, I listen to that and I hear my voice and I hear the tone of my voice, everything, the sound, the cadence. I was in complete shock still. But that's documented, and I can go back and listen to that anytime I want. But I do in September, every year, go back and listen to it because it puts me back in that headspace for a minute. That's cool. It's like an audio journal that I… That's the only time I go back and listen to things, it's stuff like that.

DH-Or this happened on this day. Oh, I did an episode that day. Let me go listen and just listen to 10 minutes.

Lurk-I do go back and listen every now and then. It's not very often. I'm surprised I honestly haven't gone back and listened to the Jordan podcast because I get asked about it quite a bit, obviously, and everyone wants to hear it and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, No, it's not happening. Because, again, what I do, send it over the internet to somebody, and then that gets fucking out somehow, and that's not going to happen at all.

DH-No, don't ever do that.

Lurk-No. Again, it's a lot to take in. It's a whole lot of media to take in at one time. It is what is. But I do go back and listen to them every now and then. Sometimes I do impress myself thinking like, Oh, you did that episode okay. You know what I mean? Hold it off. But then It doesn't take long for me to be like, You fucking suck, dude. So just keep in check.

DH-It's something you can say when people say that you suck at what you're doing is just say, Do better.

Lurk-Yeah.

DH-Go do it. They won't.

DH-Do you research on guests and stuff like that? What is your approach? Because I do think that some people do. They have to, right? They take it seriously. And not saying that I don't take it seriously, but they take it to a different level. And I always am worried that I'm always worried when I do a podcast that the person is going to think like, Good Lord, the fuck did I just waste my time doing? You know what I mean? But there's been a lot more than not that they've enjoyed it. Like you said, people will I enjoy it. It just blows my mind. But again, I tell everybody before the podcast for the most part, I'm like, I've been working all day doing Lambgoat stuff, and this is the time I carved out to talk to you, and I don't know what we're going to talk about. I don't do any research beforehand. I don't know everything about the band. The audience doesn't want to hear me talk. They want to hear you talk. So three, two, one, hit record. I don't edit anything. Nothing is ever edited. So whatever we record is whatever we put I'm out.

Lurk-People have asked me to remove stuff, and I'm like, I don't do that. After the fact, they've asked me to remove it after the fact, after it's out. I'm like, If I take it down, it's probably worse than removing it and putting it back up or something like that. Just leave it out there and people will forget about it.

DH-My process is simple. My cousin asked me when I first started, What are you going to do? Just a bunch of I was like, I don't know. I talk to anybody, really. Now, if I have a genuine interest, I'll talk to anybody. If I don't, I won't. I've turned down tons of people, and I've turned down people all the time. I delete, I don't know, 40, 50 emails a day without even reading them, most of the time, from just pitches of so and so's new album or blah, blah. I don't care. I just delete.

Lurk-Are the press people sitting you up? Is that who's sitting you up? Like PR people? Constantly. Yeah. Constantly. I feel weird about that, too, because we have a working-somer relationship, and I know it's like give some, take some thing. But if I don't have interest for the most part in it, it's going to be really hard for me to go an hour with somebody.

DH-Oh, they know that, and that's why they'll now, most of them hit me up like, Hey, so I got you scheduled in for so and so. Let me know if you want the record or any more information, but I know how you are, so you're good to go. I was like, Yeah, perfect. I don't need anything I don't know. So they don't send it to me. It's awesome. But they always offer like, Do you want this? No. My process is simple. In the beginning, I'd write two, three pages of notes just to have it in my head that I didn't want to waste anyone's time. By episode, I remember it's in the '50s, Jeff from Thursday saw that I had a notebook and I didn't even open it. He's like, Are those your notes? I was like, Oh, yeah. He's like, You didn't even open it. I was like, Yeah, I know. He's like, That's pretty cool. I was like, You know what? That is cool. I don't think I'm going to do notes anymore. I looked from that day on, I never took notes again. I didn't prep. That's also not a flex either.

DH-It's only exciting to me. It's exciting for me to not be prepared, but to be very prepared at the same time. I'm very prepared. I put myself in a head space where I'm very prepared to receive what's being given to me, listen to what's being told to me, digest it, have a clear head. I work very hard and prepare very hard to be open. I do not prepare content. I want to make that clear. I'm very adamant about I don't eat three hours beforehand because I don't want my mouth to sound like I'm still salivating and digesting food. These are cardinal things. Because I'm coughing and stuff, I never have a bottle that's closed. You hear the screwing of the cap. I don't have things in my mouth like I do now with a fucking cough trap. But I normally don't do these when I'm in this situation. But these are things that I don't do because I don't want any distractions. Because for For me, I need to be open and available. That's something I learned very much from the Ross Robinson episode I did, where we really connected on a lot of levels, and I had to just lay on the floor afterwards, about 20, 30 minutes in the dark and just contemplate what just happened.

DH-Because we locked into each other over Zoom through the eyes. I don't know what it was, but I was taken over. He was taken over. We were crying. We still, to this day, They hit each other up over text. They're like, Hey, I was thinking about this with you. We'll do another episode soon. But that's another one that got taken over. The second it came out, every site, Rolling Stone, PRP, guitar World, everywhere was picking up on, Ross Robinson says this about Slipknot's first record. He told me the story of Jonathan Davis doing Daddy and how the tape ran out the second he closed the door when he was actually done crying and how it was, how spooky that was, that the second he closed the door, you hear the tape and run out. Insane. That's where he was crying the most was reliving that. I didn't get to talk to Jonathan much about that because I only had half an hour with him, which I also normally don't take.

Lurk-Yeah, I hate that.

DH-But I had an hour, and then he was super exhausted after that show. I was here at 1:00 in the morning because he does them after shows. He's like, If someone wants to talk to me, they'll do it when I want to do it. It's fine with me, man. I've been wanting to talk to you for a long time. We had a great conversation, but I didn't get to delve into that stuff, which maybe next time we will.

Lurk-Do you do it in person? Because you said you did Ross over Zoom. What's the bulk of your… Because you're in Seattle or… Portland. Portland? Okay.

DH-A majority are over Zoom since the pandemic. I really realized I hate doing interviews on show days. It's so busy. No one's focused on anything but the show.

Lurk-That's true, yeah.

DH-Things get bumped, things are loud, things are hectic. I wait till they're off tour or on a day off in a hotel room where they can focus because I give it the same reverence, I guess. I'll ask, Is it a show day? Yeah, it's like Abraved your soundcheck. No, thanks. Is 25 minutes okay? No, it's not. I'm very selective that way. When it is in person, it's usually on a day off. Or it was a friend of mine, like the Thrice Guys, who I love dearly, and they were in one of my first episodes that I did. The whole band was like, Hey, you're starting a podcast? Let's do it with all of us. We all went backstage and did it. They supported me. They believed in me. Do you like that, though?

Lurk-Do you like having multiple people on?

DH-No, I hate it. But this was my first interview for the podcast, and I was doing it with Tepe. Because it came out episode 3, but it was the first one I actually did. I go to meet him and he's like, Dude, all of our press canceled the whole rest of the day. Then Dustin's like, Yeah, it's your podcast. Let's go do it. I was like, Really? You guys all want to do this? Yeah. That That gave me so much fire in my heart that they all decided to help me get started. That was one of the most amazing gestures of any friend. I've been friends with them for a long time since they're back in the van. But they wanted to help their friend out, and I fucked it up royally because I had the microphone set on the wrong setting. We sat in a circle, so you could only hear three of us. Nice. The whole time. I After they posted on their website that I had an episode with them. Check out our friend's podcast. My website crashed because so many people went there, and I got so many hate mail messages.

DH-I can't hear anything. This is terrible. I vowed on the podcast, I will do an episode with every member individually to make up for this, and I did it. Now, Eddie's been on six times. Riley's been on three times. The Tepe and Dustin episodes were the last ones that I did to complete the set and make up, finally, six years later for that awful… It was a great interview, too. It was awesome. We told so many great stories, but I can't hear them either because it's the The microphone was on the wrong setting. I remember back to it, and it was a great time. They were all sitting around in a circle. Dustin put a piece of pita bread under the microphone so it would stop vibrating from the rider. We all took a picture underneath the big picture at the Crystal Ballroom, and then we did it again six years later. This is where it all started, and we all looked so much older and tired.

Lurk-Yeah, that's what happened.

DH-But things like that where you get a little hand up from a buddy or five buddies, four buddies. Yeah, those things keep you going or get you going in the first place.

Lurk-Right. I'm from Jacksonville. There's another episode. There's only one other episode I never put out. That's not because of the content on the podcast, just but because I was with the Evergreen Terrace guys. Over the years, I've gotten to know them on a personal level, just because that was one of the first bands I would really see live a lot, being a young kid, cutting his teeth out at the small little DIY venues and stuff. They were the band here. They were the band that signed a eulogy, and they were touring and all that Then I get those boys on the podcast, and there's five of them. This is my second podcast ever. I'm like, I can't wrangle them in. There's not enough microphones. I had four mics, and they had three, and I had one. We were partying beforehand, right before the podcast. We were doing a little partying, and I was like, Fuck, dude, this is rough. I just didn't put it out because it was so hectic. I've been chasing them down 149 episodes or something like that, trying to get them back on the podcast. Redo. Yeah, we're going to. Obviously, they got some new stuff coming out.

Lurk-They just released some new songs and whatnot. Now, there's a reason to do that. But the other thing You mentioned timing-wise, a lot of time and stuff like that that guests have. One of the things I do hate about doing podcasts and doing them through… I don't like doing them through the PR people because obviously the PR people are going to be your access to the guests, and it's usually they're going to monetize that time for when they have something going on, like an album or a tour or something like that. I don't really care about what's going on because obviously the conversation is going to be loosely based around that. But I'm trying to go into other directions, too. I also hate that I get guests sometimes in their press run, where they're doing press for four or six hours of the day. I hate getting them for that hour, 50 minutes or whatever. I hate the Zoom stuff, too. But like you said, most of the bands that would do the in-person podcast, they would come to my house, and they'd sit on my couch, and hang out with my dog, and have beers from my fridge.

Lurk-But it was on show days. But usually, it was earlier in the day to where we had hours and hours before the show. But those days are gone because COVID came, and the use of Zoom has taken over. Yes, I do get a lot more access to bands that aren't coming through town and whatnot. I do live in a small, not small, but I do live in a part of the world where a lot of bands don't really like touring Florida because it's out of the way.

DH-I hated it.

Lurk-Yeah, it's out of the way.

DH-It's humid as hell.

Lurk-That is hot, blah, blah, blah, Oh my God.

DH-I hated it every second I was in Florida. But I live here. I won't lie to you.

Lurk-All day long. All my life. Jacksonville is also in that weird space between Atlanta and Orlando, Tampa, and Miami. If a band comes to Florida, they have to play at least four shows to make it worthwhile. They'll go Orlando, Tampa, Miami, or in those areas, and then maybe Tallahassee, Pensacola on the way out. But not every tour package comes through Jacksonville. I do take the Zoom podcast, but I do hate it. I do hate it.

DH-I feel like if I wanted to get in a fight, I would go to Jacksonville.

Lurk-Come on, dude.

DH-Miami is where an anatomy of a ghost broke up. I'm impartial to that or I have a… I don't know. I don't like Miami, but I never did. But Florida, I don't do good in humidity. That's what killed it for me in Florida, the toll roads and the humidity. Great orange juice at all the truck stops. We loved changing our minds and driving through the middle of a turnpike median through the grass and go in the other direction. We loved doing stuff like that. But I did like Orlando because Zack's uncle is a competition barbecue guy. Make us an awesome meal. Then we would play our show. This is the venue in Orlando we play all the time.

Lurk-Social, backbooth.

DH-It's got the really thin stage that goes along the venue.

Lurk-Side, and there's a bar across the way. Is it the Social? Social, it has that little, I don't know if it's still there, I don't know if it's still called that, but they have a little thin bar or a little thin stage. There's like a little, there's some stairs down to the floor and into the bar. Yeah, the Social.

DH-That's the Social. I love playing there. Then we would go. Usually, there's big band like the Chili Peppers or something playing in the stadium down the road. His uncle would be out there selling sausages and stuff, and he makes his whole living from doing that. Florida Barbecue is not something that's good.

Lurk-As a family and everything. Florida Barbecue is not something to joke about, you all. I keep telling him that. So good.

DH-Three kinds of sausage and four different sauces. That's all he has. Simple. He makes a complete living, has a house and everything, just doing that after shows at the stadium. Incredible.

Lurk-I need to do a side hustle. Hot dog Dave.

DH-It's so good. Dude, okay. I just had my life changed musically, and I posted about it randomly on social media. It's just going to sound crazy. By Alanis Morrisette. I went and saw Alanis. My friend Gigi is the tour manager for Joan Jett and the Blackhearts, and they were opening. I hit her up and she got my wife and I into the show. Fifteenth row, center on an aisle where we had no one in front of us. You could kick your legs out. Totally comfortable show experience. But when Alanis came on, I lost my absolute mind. It was one of the best shows I've ever seen in my life. It was that voice and the power and the control. I couldn't even sing along because I was so mesmerized by what was happening in front of me. Completely revitalized music for me. Oh, Alanis. That's all I can say about it. It was transcendent. She's coming through. I was like, Dude.

Lurk-So I'm definitely on the... I'm going.

DH-Oh, it's so good.

Lurk-There was also- It's so good. The Killing Moon, I think, covered, You ought to know, on one of these punk goes '90s albums or like that. Yeah. I listened to that song so fucking much, dude. Dude. But I mean, I listened to that Jagged Little Pill because I mean, I was a kid when that came out. My sister was- That record was so good. Yeah, for sure.

DH-You ought to know. I'll tell you this right now. You ought to know when they were writing that record and no one wanted to sign her. They went out to have a meeting, another meeting with another hotshot, and she's like, I don't want to do any more of these meetings. Let's just do the record, blah, blah, blah. She was in sweat pants. It's like, I'm not even changed on my fucking sweat pants. I don't even care. We're going to get denied again. Who are they meeting with? Gio Siri. Gio Siri, she said, literally crawled across the desk to try to sign them once he heard those songs and changed her whole world wearing sweat pants. But you ought to know, the way they were recording the record is they come in the daytime and work, then they'd leave and go have dinner and come back and do a little more in the evening. You ought to know, they went to dinner, came back, probably still in Sweatpants, she went in the booth and did one take of that entire song, and that's what's on the record. Oh, wow. Interesting. The first and only take. Incredible.

Lurk-That's wild.

DH-That is wild. Then you see her do it live now when she's happily married with kids and Dave Coulier is nowhere to be found, it still hits you like she's still ripped apart by this .Unreal. Yeah. It was unreal.

Lurk-I'm looking forward to it. I am looking forward to it for sure.

DH-Yeah. She runs the set like a professional. When a band comes out and does four songs before they even say anything, she does that. By the fourth song, she's got a guitar on, and she's going two more songs and just slaughtering you with not even just hits, but solid deep cuts. You're like, I forgot. I love this song. You're just mesmerized. It's going to blow your fucking mind. I need to have her on the show at some point.

Lurk-I'm looking forward to it. Dewey, it is dinner time for me. I'm going to have to cut us short here. Not really short. We've been going for like an hour and 45. There you go. It goes. When it goes, it goes. I appreciate it. Two podcasters. Yeah, it's not a good thing. It's a ball of mix. It's not really... Might not be the best thing, but for those who are very interested and are still here, thank you for listening for this one. But yeah, I will actually be in your part of the world, not in a couple of weeks. So if you're bored, we'll grab a coffee or something like that, and I will take in the Pacific Northwest dreary weather.

DH-It's going to be 90 something.

Lurk-Completely different than here. I'll bring the heat and humidity.

DH-It's 93 right now.

Lurk-Really? Is it?

DH-Dead serious. 93 fucking degrees.

Lurk-You guys We're going to invest in more air conditioning.

DH-Yep, we got it.

Lurk-Yeah, okay. Dude, thank you for your time.

DH-Absolutely.

Lurk-If you're still here, the Peer Pleasure podcast, which I'm sure you already fucking heard about, but give it a listen. I'm going to go listen to the Chino episode because I totally forgot that you had that, and I need to go back and listen to that.

DH-I'm going to daydream. Listen to both.

Lurk-Yeah. There's two. I'm going to daydream about one day having him on the podcast, and then I'm going to daydream about having Fred Dersh on the podcast. Then my trio of guests that I would really have wanted, I'll quit podcasting after that because I'll have Daryl, Fred, and Chino.

DH-God speed.

Lurk-All right, man. Thank you very much.

DH-You're welcome. Thank Thank.

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